Berserker more damage than two handed savage? (analysis)

[Crake]

Wow, I ran the hypothetical numbers, based on my knowledge of DAOC mechanics and the berserker might be more damage than savage.

Assumptions:

With +15, at creation, +58, shaman second highest buff and 75 Spell crafting quickness:
Troll savage quickness 201
Troll Berserker quickness 183

Troll Savage 49 savagery for 39% haste

Troll Savage using a 5.5 delay

Berserker using 4.2 delay main and 2.2 delay off.

Berserker 50 left axe penalty, at RR5, will give 85% of normal damage of both swinging

Berserker will have 20% more weaponskill



Math:

Savage will swing 5.5 at 5.5*(1-(201-60)/500)*(1-.39) = 2.41 seconds
Berserk will swing 4.2/2.2 combo at ((4.2+2.2)/2)*(1-(183-60)/500) = 2.41 seconds.

(so they swing at same effective rate, with these two set-ups)

Damage, using similar or same styles.

Over time, Savage TOTAL will out-damage berserker MAIN hand by 1 - 5.5*(1-20% less WS)/4.2(1-15% for left axe penalty) = 1 - 4.4/3.57 = 1 - 1.23 = 23% more.

Berserker off hand damage will be X% of savage TOTAL: = 85% (left axe penalty) of 2.2 delay divided by 80% (less weaponskill) of 5.5 delay*1.2(increase 20% to account for the style damage on savage TOTAL, so you can compare base damage of berserker off to savage total damage) = .85*2.2/5.5*.8*1.2 = 1.87/5.28 = 35%


Conclusion:

So the 35%, of Savage Total, offhand damage of the berserk will more than make up for the savage TOTAL doing 23% more than the berserkers MAIN.

Throw in Vendo and that situation that Savagesmust use hitpoints (cost fo their shouts) to get this damage and do not get "charge" and berserker seems the melee way to go. If this is right, I was always wrong about savage comparison to other melee damage.

Did I do anything wrong in this analysis?

[Sectoid]

You based the power of a class on a formula.

[Crake]

Ok I think I found the difference, I forgot the savage 25% DPS shout buff.

Math, second part.

Savage Total/Berserker Total (both from earlier post)* 1.25% (savage DPS buff) = % of berserker's total damage a two handed savage will do, with my assumptions in first post.

Savage Total = 1.23 of Berserkers Main.
Berserker Total = 1 (its main being base in this equation) + 35% of Savage Total (for off-hand damage)
= 1 + 35% of 1.23 (Savage Total) = 1 + .4305
= 1.4305

So Two Handed Savage will do 1 - (1.23/1.4305) * 1.25 (1.25% for DPS Shout increase) = 1 - 0.86 * 1.25 = 1 - 1.075 = 7.5% more damage.

So, unless I made another mistake:

A Two Handed Troll Savage will do 7.5% more damage, over time, than a Troll left axe wielding Berserker.

So to finalize comparison:

Savage:

+ 7.5% more damage (I think my final analysis is correct - I can think of nothing I
forgot)
+ Evade 4 versus berserker's Evade 3
+ Can create endurance (this is very nice ability, and a hard one to give up, to me.)
+ Defensive buffs (pretty decent benefit to cost. I used Evade increase when engaging
a group, with melee, so about 75% of time and occasionally used the melee resist buffs, if an assist train was on me, or if toe-toe with a stealther or melee.)


- Must use 10% hit points, every 15 seconds to get the +7.5% advantage
- 20% lower weaponskill translate into missing and being parried and blocked more
(so likely really less damage, over time.)

Berserker

+ Vendo, for all critical hits, every 7 minutes.
+ Charge realm ability. I have not had this new realm ability (immunity to CC and
speed 3) since I played a savage but it should be a great ability and highly
needed.

[Augomatic]

You'd also have to factor in at least a yellow baseline haste buff on the zerker for all things to be equal, since they would most likely have that in any set group.

That aside, you have a pretty big assumption in the formula:

"*(1-20% less WS)"

I'm assuming you put 0.8 there? Effect of weaponskill is pretty murky, and depends on a number of factors.

Latest I've read is it only controls the to-hit, especially with regard to parry/evade.

Tests I've seen, and anecdotal evidence, is that a Savage will outdamage a Zerk vs. support, but zerker will do better against any toon w/ high defence (generally tanks).

On the new server, given that there is no bodyguard anymore, the support should be long dead before you start hitting their tanks, so Savage might get an edge here.

[Crake]

Good points, Augomatic. I never could determine a way to isolate the weaponskill variable, for testing.

Lest assume it does not directly lower damage, via wider variance from damage cap (the assumption I always made.)

Savage Total = 5.5delay / .85 (left axe penalty) *4.2 delay = 5.5/3.57 = 1.54 times berserker main hand damage.

Berserker off hand = 2.2delay * 85%( left axe penalty) / 5.5delay * 120% (adjustment to compare base only of off hand to base plus style (!20% of total) of savage total) = 28.3% of Savage Total damage.

So damage of two compared = Savage Total / Berserker Total

= > 1.54 / 1 (berserk main hand damage) + 28% of Savage total (1.54)
= 1.54 / 1 + .434 = 1.54 / 1.434 = 108% of berserker damage.

So, it did not change it much, 8% versus 7.5%. Also, the base line haste, which the berserker will have, in our groups but will not work, when savages are using their haste shout, will allow the Berserker to have that haste more base damage, with approximately less style damage. Assuming 20% style damage that means the berserker, if he gets 17% healer haste, will increase his damage, from my earlier analysis, by 80% (base damage) * 1.17 (haste) + 20% (style damage) * (1-.17) (haste decrease on style) = .8*1.17 + .2*.83 = .936 + .166 = 110%

So actually, assuming weaponskill will not lower damage variance, but berserker will normally have healer 17% haste, that savage can not stack with his haste shout, the bersker pulls ahead ~2%, 1 -(1.54/1.434 * 1.1), for a statistical tie.

Throw in more misses, from lower weaponskill and that 2% will widen to maybe 8% to 10%, over time but as you pointed out, that difference will be null against lower AF classes, such as support, which light tanks should primarily be killing. Also on berserk advantage, Vendo can be done every 7 minutes, making the equal ( against support) to 8% more (if high AF classes are targets) widen to the berserkers favor.

These comparison sound right. Mythic probably made the savage, do a little less damage, over time, in comparison to other melee characters to compensate for the burst damage ability of H2H savages (the majority of savages), when one gets a lucky streak of numerous quad and triple hits.

[Crake]

I forgot two handed bonus. I am isolating it with low DPS bought weapons; I have gotten 16% to 18%, more cap damage on two handed weapons, after adjusting for delay difference. So two handed gets a bonus over 1 handed damage, all else equal, of around 18% (it might be influenced by how many specs in weapon you have.)

[Winke]

CRAKE!!! pick whatever seems fun to you, all this analysis is giving me a headache every time I try to make sense of your analysis. ITS A FUCKING GAME


gimp!!

Winke

Savage would be more fun imo, more utility

[Sectoid]

Afuckingmen.

[Nilbert500]

zerker would be a lot more simpler and relaxing to play too imo. You get charge and basically only have to /assist and style. Savage has to deal with his chants and stuff.