Are Thanes now better then warriors and comparable to Zerker

[Bulor]

but aens, your tossing other classes which aren't in this discussion.. we are discussing thanes and warriors.

at all times a healer might not be there for it's all mighty 2400 rananged forgetfulness spelll.. at all times, you wont have a skalds there for wtf pwn instant mez.. if you bring those classes into play, you might also have to bring the skill level of a player into the discussion.

Godorn.. frekaing amazing warrior, i have seen him run into lord rooms, packed with hibbs and pbae, and take out liek 4 casters.. and still come out alive.. sure he had healers on his ass the whole time.. but still... all those side factors come into play. but thats only in a perfect world.. in perfect groups with fellow guild/allieance members that know wtf they are doing.

on the avg, you can't rely on your group for everything.. thus why IP and htings are in effect in a way... healer cna't heal you.. you ip. healer can't cure your mez.. you purge... you don't have a skald around to stop that caster for aoe mezing your party.. you can either as a thane.. land a few instants. or as a warrior.. sprint up.. and try to land a slam.. which of course wont land becuase all casters have fend up. OR as a warrior, you can pull out your uber Range attack 2 second speed throwing axe!

so i say again.. who would you rather have in a group.. someone with a lil more hitpoints? or someone that can stop a caster... instantly?

basiclly if you want to use a style to stop a minretel from running off.. you relaly have to be in melee range for a warrior.. not the same for a thane tho.

[Nese]

Who can stop a caster from casting?
mez, stun, root, amnesia, skald, savage(until they remove the interrupt)...

Savage interrupt is going away in the next patch, just like the Paly one. So the savage is off that list. You mentioned all the skald spells, but Thanes are also good for interruption if thats what your looking for. An 8 Man has to have a skald for speed, so you will still have all those abilities available. Having that extra interruption that a Thane offers could be invaluable in the long run.

who can stop that minstrels from running off with hsi speed song...
A warrior going 2h sword + ragnarok + PF + other tanks assisting = lots of situations where you have minstrels running, namely cause they are the last ones alive. I don't mind if a minstrel runs away like that. Plus, thats what skald snare is for...

PF is good when you dont have a skald for the second snare. You also mentioned Rag, which also has a snare conponent. Conq in hammer spec also has a snare with it. So if you had a Hammer Thane, you would still get the snare component that PF or Rag offers. Besides, if the minstrel pops SoS everyone is shit outta luck. Also for PF, its a 35% chance it will proc (according to the Herald).

who can actually do some good in large scale combat?
By that same statement, we aught to run groups of cave shamans and BA BDs and 50 spec Dark or RC rms....

Every class can do some damage in Zerg warfare. Doesn't really apply to this discussion.

who can actually win a 1on1 battle with an inf?
Humm... go ask Donzi how he used to patrol upps solo and smack around stealthers...

Post IP Nerf should any stealther beat a Tank, hybrid or not. You mentioned Donzi smacking stealthers, but Drothin does just as well.

Sorry man, but warriors are better than thanes in open field combat. Thanes may have the utility now that SC isn't as gimp, but in the end, its still a hybrid in midgard.

As I said before, its not a question of who's better, its who can perfom well in an 8man. Warriors and Thanes can both perform well if the group works together. Warriors do the tanking, Thanes do the assisting along with the skald and savages. To say "its still a hybrid in midgard" and regard them as gimps because of 2 fuckin RA's is so bandwagon it sickens me. If you wanna talk RA's, heres one. Armor of Faith. oh? whats that? Yup, thanes get their own personal BoF. Infact, all hybrids and seers get this, but Warriors and Savages dont. Warriors have access to AP, along with Zerkers and Skalds. Thanes and Savages don't.

[Aenslaed Kasugano]

Several things.

Are we discussing the effectiveness of thanes as solo or in a group? When in a group, ie 8 man, you have to figure in the use and situations when classes work together. If it ever comes down to a 1v1 when it started off as a full group vs full group, then the group sucks. As a group, you aren't supposed to be alone.

In a midgard melee group, you would have 2 healer, 1 aug shaman, 1 skald and 4 others. A thane would fit in one of the 4 tank slots. Therefore, as one of the 4 damage dealers, they would be expected to assist or be assisted.

Now to analyze the various melee classes in midgard and their strengths and weaknesses in such a group make up.

Warrior: Solid backbone. Highly defense and with a 2h, offensive. Add in RAs and PF, unstoppable.

Savage: Overpowered killer whether h2h or 2h. Alot of positional stuns and chains. However, light on HP until offset by buffs and RAs. Light tank RA set is a definitely bonus. Needs a shield tank to team up with.

Zerker: Damage wise is a shadow from before. However, dual wield, fast attack makes it still a viable assist target + bubble popper. Can take damage and has the Light tank RAs and PF.

Skald: Speed bot. Mainly going 2h so frontload damage is very high. Ranged attacks allow for a skald to play as a swing man or harrassment class. A MUST in any group that expects to do well in emain and in many other fighting location. Terrible RA set and subpar defense.

Thane: A hybrid with some spells. Shares many of the weakness of the skald, however,given the option to spec a shield for defense and the potential any time stun. Terrible RA set. Does not mature till RR6 to remain competitive with light and heavy tanks in CQB.

So now the roles of these classes in 8man.

I've been talking to Lagged Again alot about strategy and this is their group setup. They run two teams inside the group. Two teams of two tanks. However, they have since run 3 healers so the skald no longer plays as swing man. For each team, one sets the other up. A Savage gets paired up with a tank with PF.

Before I go on, Prevent Flight should be clarified. Its a 14 point RA available to Warriors and Zerks. Only used from the rear as an additional proc. Chance to snare is 90%+ (herald is wrong, or PF is bugged. No mention of any changes to "fix/nerf"it). Effect is a 80% snare effect for 15 seconds unbreakable by other melee. Conquer snare is roughly a 25% snare and breaks on damage (ie your assisting tank will break your snare before you attack again). Ragnarok does not have a snare, but rather an attack speed debuff of roughly 25%. Ragnarok + PF for a crippling snare and the highest cap first attack (sledge has a higher growth rate, but is 2nd in chain).

So while slam is a 9 second any time stun, it can have an immunity timer, while PF does not. Each team should have PF or as a secondary, a slam. However, the 2-3 healers will offset the need for slam if not overwritting it.

In an ideal group for me when it comes to melee, would be 1 warrior, 1 zerk, 2 savages, 1 skald, 1 shaman, 2 healers. Teams would be 1 warrior, 1 savage and 1 zerk, 1 savage and the skald unless it is playing interrupt.

The warrior/sav team would work on the tougher support classes (cleric, warden,friar, etc) because they are more likely to survive long enough to run. The zerk/sav/skald team would take care of the soft targets. Zerk would pop bubble and the other two would crush it.

In that set up, only the skald would remain mezzed or rooted for any extended amount of time, the other 4 would be able to slog through it before your own support dies.

Now if you replaced the warrior with the thane, you lose PF and you become subject to pbae mez taking you out of the fight. You still have slam however. If you replaced something in the other group with a thane, they'd lose too much damage to remain effective.

But as much as a class is good, you need a good player behind it or you might as well be in a pickup group.

[Bulor]

but what i'm trying to express to use is how useless a warrior is if he doens't get into range to do anything.

and anything a warrior can do in range.. so can a thane... so why take a warrior which can only excel in close combat.. when a thane can excel at ranged and close combat.

when being a thane, can stop someone which is speeding songing 1000 uc away.. whats a warrior gonna do? /wave .. thats pretty much it.

whats a thane gonna do?.. intant. dd.. target gets the incombat timer up, speed song is down.. he is now controlable. able to catch with sprinting.

being able to stop someones speed is a key to victory.. why do you think josh is so good at soloing?, becuase shammy speed can't be stoped.. having perma sprint.. or just the abilty to sprint longer then another.. allows you to kite your target. and chances of them ever catching him and rare to none.

[Aenslaed Kasugano]

Getting in range is not an issue in open field. And who cares if they are kiting you, if you are chasing the right class (their clerical class), the rest of them are going to be in trouble anyways.

You continually make references to solo situations. This isn't a discussion of solo situations.

[Crippler]

Aenslands is 100% right. PF is VERY USEFUL. I've made TF fight the same way, 2 teams, and casters doing their own thing. 1v1 a Thane can beat just about anyone, but that doesn't really matter. In real time RvR we see what classes excel. That is not a Thane and never will be. Interupts? Who cares. Assisting melee can drop a caster in 1-2 rounds. They can drop support depending on RA's in 3-6 rounds. Oh did I mention in real time 8v8 rvr that kiting is a HUGE issue. If you didn't already know that kiting = dead savage you do now. Just think of it like this scenario:

Your team of 2 healers, 1 shaman, 2 savages, 1 warrior, 1 zerk, Caster vs. FOTM 2 druid, 2 bard, 4 tank

Your 8man runs into Hib 8man. Mezzes are exchanged, purged... Everyone is moving again. Your partner rolls up with you and hits bard#1 but bard#1 is on end and starts to sprint off. You can hit clans call on him if your a savage and he only stays there for 4 secs then runs again or you can have PF tank with you that hits PF while bard starts running and bam... Dead bard while your other team does the SAME ExACT THING to bard #2. Now... if caster was doing his job and rooting tanks and druids.. this could be easy if not, you get to run directly at druids both teams and more then likely they'll have bards rezzing up and you A) hit those bards freshly rezzed or if they aren't rezzed drop the druids.. Same thing applies here. Their tanks will usually start peeling and PFing/snaring/stunning you back which is why PF and snare styles are so damn useful. They have you snared but you also have your target snared to where he's going no where. You have successfully dropped the druids and bards, and you can now start on owning the tanks.

I know what you're saying, sounds good... What does this have to do with a thane though? He doesn't get PF, he gets low weapon skill, his spells can only do delve * 2 damage and cant crit nor can he get acuity buffs. I dont want a thane sitting back there casting when I could have another tank with me PFing, slamming, with higher weapon skill doing more damage. I'd rather have a caster because he can root, do damage (delve * 3 + crits + acuity bonuses), nearsight if rm, lifetap or pbae if SM.

[Nese]

I got a question for Crip then after that post. Assumin the Thane isn't sitting back casting, but is in the fray. Do you still think that they will be useless in that situation?

We all know that warriors have the highest weapon skill, and can do more frontload damage than any hybrid hands down. I guess my point in this whole thing is that I feel that a Thane can be a viable "swing" man. Like you said yourself crip, If you hit Clans Call with a savage, yet have no PF tank there, the bard is off and running. So what happens if you only have 1 savage in the group, but 2 warriors? Can't you fill that spot with a Thane or Skald and still be effective? Or Swap the Zerk for a Thane and still be effective?

[Crippler]

my usual group makeup is.. 2 healer, shaman, skald, 2 - 3 savvies, and whatever else we can find. I think a Skald's are awsome and I really dont know what they whine about to be honest... They have awsome utility for what they are. As far as a thane in a group in place of a savage, zerk, or warrior. Sure, you could as long as they know not to hit their AE hammers All it basically comes down to is how well your group functions together: Meaning do they /assist when they should, do they peel for healers/casters when its called for, and how well they can sing a britney spears tune~.

[Menagery]

MY Thane 2 cents worth.

I have a spec of 48 Storm 42 shield 42 hammer its good I like it. Made almost 700k with it.

What is my job in group guard the healers or sm's. When they come near them do a dd ae or a single target DD insta. Works cool, they run away. I block like a MF in any fight. I haven't tested new styles but I did test new DD spells on pendragon. I went up 30 to as much as 80 more damage per cast or shout per each spell.

Warriors and thanes can both shield stun. If i duel a warrior who ever lands slam first has the advantage. However if I can get a cast off ebfore he hits me and both my INSTA's i can easily win most of the time even if he lands slam.

EX: I do a castable DD hit for 201 then do insta DD 180 then do ae just as he gets near me 160 he is down 460 HP's before his first swing now add another 200 on to that post paost and he is down 660 before he swings once. By the tiem he swings i swing one of us lands stun even if its him in 20 seconds I can INSTA DD another 400 HP's.

In rvr my castable AE DD spell does about 130 per person hit not much damage but it sure can interrupt and keep them in combat so they cant do potions, mcl etc.... The radius could be longer but its a medium range not like them wizzies in alb land.

I LOVE MY THNAE SHE IS A BIOTCH!!!!!!

MY THANE"S 2 CENTS WORTH

[Crippler]

my 2cents.. If you are going to use spells for interrupt purpose why not just go 50 weapons x 42 shield, rest in Parry/SCing... You can still interupt that way... And someone running away with you DD them? I'd have to get a video of that.. That would be too funny Most ppl will just run through you though that are good players

[Menagery]

I dont need parry I am hammer/shield. And just so you know with all the new hibbies out there there are lots running away when they take damage from what they think is a caster. Sorry to tell you this but not everyone is a good player. Not even 25% of them are good. HEHEHEHE

But playing a thane compared to a warrior ( which is the topic of post not how I am specced) I think after the patch a thane can take a warrior or at least come mighty close and thats in a straight up duel no RA's. I have already beaten warriors in duels numerous times.

[Aenslaed Kasugano]

But the topic of the thread is not about duels, but about real rvr performance. Savages suck in most duels.... they most certainly don't suck in real rvr.

[Winke]

In my time I was 2nd best in duels next to Oncelot. I loved dueling thanes because most often I would beat them and it was fun. Thane starts by trying to cast a DD, Winke rushes and SLAMS the bish, 2H is drawn and thane looses 50%+ HP from that attack alone, than its all over either with 1H or stay 2H. I found out that if I stayed 2H and didnt get blocked to much thane died in 1-2 more hits.

Thanes>warriors in keep defense while enemy is on the doors, Lord defense warrior>thanes. I also resist Thane DD's quite often, 50%+ resisting during duels. Toughest class to duel for a warrior if played right is a skald. I think SC is a kewl fun spec for a hybrid but in the final analysis a Warrior is a better tank/melee in RvR.

Here is a simple breakdown, Warrior has only 2 skills to focus on, offensive and defensive, weapon, shield, parry. Thane on the other hand have weapon, SC, shield, parry. Thanes as they should always go weapon and SC which means shield and parry are weaker. While warrior is all shield or parry or both and weapon. Warrior out melee's a thane any day and blocks/parry's more. When I go melee only against thanes its a no contest.

Winke

[Aalto Stormcaller]

Actually Aens... The topic does'nt say anything about RvR performance.
It asks if Thanes>Warrior comparable to zerks. I guess i would take that as an all around question not just RvR situations.