Two Handed Savage, I'll be

[Crake]

think I will be a two handed troll savage again. Did the same think on Mordred. Wanted to try something different (there I had choice of all three realms) but went back to a two handed savage. The damage is that much better. I have run a bunch of test , the last few days and on low AF targets, a two handed savage can out damage a berserker almost 50%, where weaponskill will not matter and about 25% on high AF targets. "charge" and "prevent flight" are not worth that : (

From everything I read, the new server will be melee oriented and I was going to be berserker before, so I doubt this will disrupt any group set-ups and I will probably make another class, maybe bone dancer, after we are established.

[boubou]

Crake what about the H2H versus the 2H. The 2H savage interest me, its easier for spec and race, just go troll and smash everything.

Any info on this, or if you go 2 hand, how much more damage you will roughly do more than a warrior. If its a mere 10% or something, then way better to roll a warrior.

Let me know, you seem good with these things, just dont lose me with huge calculations, its what I do all day at work.

[Crake]

I really do not know in comparison to warriors. Last night I asked for cap damage from berserkers, on VN vikings board, Based on replies, base damage was 205 X 2, with 4.1 delay weapons, in each hand. Based on normal styles used, they estimated that 1/3 of damage was style damage, so cap normal total damage would be 410/(2/3)=615 (I know, no style on offhand but they estimated that style was 1/3 of total damage, so I calculated it as such.)

I calculated that a 5.6 delay would be swung savage at 2.1 seconds, while a berserker would swing the 4.1 dual weapons at 2.3 seconds.

So cap damage per second:

savage => 850/2.15 = 395
berserker =>615/2.3 = 267

48% more, on cap damage per second.

That will lessen in actual play, because of lower weaponskill. But they will not be much difference on low AF targets.

Some posted that on average weapnskill roughly translates to that much more damage over time.

So, Berserker having about 25% more weaponskill, actual difference will probably be 1 -148/125 = 18% on medium and high AF targets.

Not sure if two handed warriors do same damage as berserkers but 1 handed would not but they could slam anytime and stun, very nice ability.

[boubou]

OK, so from what I understand, and from what I say in rvr, Savages are caster killers. From what I read on all posts, the savage has replaced the zerker.

Warriors, berzerkers would do a lot less damage, but against armored targets, the damage differential comes down.

Plus, the stun from the warrior really makes the savage shine, so based on that, can we say that.

1 warrior + 1 savage is stronger than 2 savages.

or that

1 warrior + 2 savage is stronger than 3 savages.

[jaap]

i'm playing a 2h savage also i thinky. but i think i'm doing a kobbie one.

[boubou]

If you go kobie, probably much better going H2H, its based on dex and str.

[jaap]

i know but i think it'd be more fun, eh.
I don't know we'll see.

[Marlboro]

<--Been assigned shaman duty till further notice!

[Mourningblade]

heh, ive been thinking savage as well.

played a warr on merlin, but went kobby and dmg was just not as good as a troll or even a dwarf.

not sure about the 2 hand or h2h yet.

might have to rethink if several folks are gonna play savages.

also reactivated my bot account so I'll have an aug shammy too

[boubou]

We need savages, so I will probably roll the biggest troll warrior ever, so we should be really good on classes. Go ahead and roll savages, when I slam them, you guys know what to do.

[Mourningblade]

so,

axe, sword and hammer weap skill is determined by strength and hand to hand weapons are dex/str based?

savages can duel weild axe/hammer/sword?

if so, do they still have the chance to multiple hit with these weapons as they do with h2h? or is the multiple hit thing only happen with h2h?

is a 2 hander savage really that kick ass? I imagine with the self speed buffs they could lay the hurt down pretty well, but just curious.....

Please excuse me for exposing my ignorance so completely

[Adida]

i know 2h savage was kick ass at one point in time. I can't remember the patch number but they nerfed it to hit way less than h2h. 2h zerker actually hits just as hard as a 2h savage. (i have tested this over and over right after that patch) This patch was way before toa came out and when savages got free respects for it. If you go savage you are better off going h2h if you want 2h light tank you are seriously better off going zerker.

[boubou]

here is some good information that I found on savages on VN.

okay... for h2h savages...

go troll, with 10 quick, 10 str, 10 dex.

end stats before items for a:
troll: 125 str 90 dex 68 quick 70 con
Norse: 95 str, 105 dex, 83 quick, 70 con
Valk: 80 str, 120 dex, 108 quick, 45 con
dwarf: 85 str, 105 dex, 83 quick, 80 con,
kobold: 75 str, 125 dex, 103 quick, 50 con

After buffs, (62 base, 93 spec, 75 from items, 25 str cap, 25 dex cap, 5 quick cap-scalars)

Troll: 380 str, 345 dex, 241 quick, 300 con
Norse: 350 str, 355 dex, 261 quick, 300 con
Valk: 335 str, 370 dex, 296 quick, 275 con
Dwarf: 340 str, 355 dex, 261 quick, 310 con
Kobold: 330 str, 375 dex, 291 quick, 280 con


avg dmg stat(str+dex/2)

Troll: 362.5
Norse: 352.5
Valk: 352.5
Dwarf: 347.5
Kobold: 352.5

troll is better by 10, so even if we took the quick out of all of the other races, and put them 5 into dex, 5 into str, the difference would still be 5... meaning missing 10 dmg points (10/2=5)

and troll has 300 con, as well, 2nd in that area

9 quick is not much, you need exactly 250 quick to cap dual 4.4 speed claws, its 1.5% melee speed which could boil down to 1.5% more base dmg.

it ends up being where norse is 9 points of quick higher than troll, and troll is 10 dex or str more than norse, while both have the same hps.

so really it equals out... norse and troll are nearly identical, so if you bring racials into account

troll has 5% matter, 2% thrust, 3% slash
norse has 5% cold, 2% crush, 3% slash


I would say that norse is the best h2h savage


so in summation....

troll is the best dmg dealing race for all vikings except savages, which norse is best in (and its only better because of racials IMO)

[Crake]

Note: I edited my original post because I forgot about the savage DPS shout when considering the cap damage of both classes was the same.

Edit: (((

I forgot an advantage of the savage, on each hit. Savage and berserker are on same damp cap table so I did the analysis below assuming each hit would have the same damage cap, with the berserkers normal spec of 50 weapon allowing 5% more cap damage than the two handed savage at 44 weapon. But the savage gets his 25% DPS buff, which actually deliveries around 31%, as spells delves higher than posted (I'll retest this too.)

So actually, with the same weapon, savage using his DPS shout, will do 1 minus (Savage times his 25% DPS shout) divided by (berserkers increase from higher 50 spec) = 1 1.25/1.05 = 20% more damage cap. So actually the two handed savage has a higher damage cap per hit and swings faster. For note, my savage, with a battler, has a damage cap of around 850 on Drawout, using both haste and damage shout and around 910, with only DPS shout. - I'll redo these. Anyone know what a berserker's damage cap, with a two handed battler, is?

))))


First on "nerf" to two handed savages, the "nerf" lowered its weaponskill table, as before it was on the same weaponskill table as warriors and berserkers and instead put it on the same weaponskill table as H2H line but damage cap stayed the same. (As I remember, this patch was around Spring 2003, my weaponskill, at 44hammer, fully buffed, went from ~1875 to ~1790, so it was around a 5% lowering of the two handed savage weaponksill.) So, it was not much of a difference, especially on low AF targets.


On two handed berserkers: They are on different weaponskill tables but I am fairly sure the same damage cap tables, all else equal but it is not equal because the savage gets a 25% (if 49 savagery) DPS Shout that really delivers 31%, from testing. This savagery buff is to make up for the lower weapons skill but still same damage cap table, so it boosts his damage cap 25% (31%.)

Also, the savage swings much faster:

Here is the swinging speeds if both are trolls swinging 5.4 delay weapons, in most optimal situation for berserk, healer haste buffs and celerity (assume level 31 and 32, at normal, for our set-up.)

Berserker, normally buffed quickness of around 200.

Quick factor = 1 - (210-60)/500 = 0.72
Healer level 31 buff = 1 - .15 = .85
Healer level 32 celerity = 1 - ..31 = .69

Berserker effective swing = 5.4*.72*.85*.69 = 2.28 seconds.

Savage, normal buffed quickness around 223.

Quick factor = 1 -(223-60)/500 = .674
Savagery haste buff = 1 - .39 = .61
Healer level 32 celerity = 1 - .31 = .69

Savage effective swing = 5.4*.674*.61*.69 = 1.53 seconds.

So over time, the berserker will swing 1 - 2.28/1.53 = 49% slower. That 49% slower swing translates to 49% less damage, over time, even without considering the savage having more damage per hit, from DPS shout. This is an up to 49% slower swing because if you kill a target in one or two swings (for every three swings of a berserker, savage gets over four and half, so with fewer swings, less advantage since you can not swing a partial swing), it redcues this advantage.


Now lets compare if a fully augment healer. That will bring the savage to 1.50 (although the savage could find a slower delay, if this augment healer is around a lot) but bring the berserker to 1.83, in which case he is only swinging 22% slower (savages gets over a 6th hit for every 5th hit of berserker) and interrupting 22% slower, so a fully augmented healer will allow the berserker to catch-up but the savage still delivers around 22% more damage.


On H2H versus 2 handed savage, the cap damage per second difference, as I remember from my tests, was 13% more by the two handed savages but a troll two handed will have about 10% more weaponskill, so it will probably be around 18% (1.13*1.05 (half of the 10% mroe weaponskill)) normally and will be 25% against high level AF, from 10% more weaponskill, plus with the 1.60 average swings per round (lowest of any dual wweapon class, in the game), of the H2H having the off hand swings non styled, much of that average hits per round will miss much more than the always styled, normally taunt with medium to high to-hit bonus, of the two handed savages. I will do an updated test on this after copying to Pendragon.

[Crake]

Sorry to add to thread and bore many but for those that plan for savages this might be interesting.

I just tested on Pendragon with same RR7 savage, hitting greys (so all damage is cap damage.)

<Note: This is a comparative test, with same savage, equal everything except normal in-game spec set-up. It is strictly to compare both set-ups, via comparing their cap damage amount, on the same savage. It is not a test for actual DPS, of the savage class, in general.>

Premises:

Both:

Melee damage bonus: 4%
Combat Speed bonus: 3%
Quickness: 85
Weapons: 16.5DPS 100%

Two Handed:

Weapon: 5.6 delay
Spec: 44 weapon (sword in this case) and 49 savagery ( typical Two Handed setup)
RR and +3 sword item => sword 44+9

H2H:

Weapon: 4.0 delay
Spec: 50H2H and 42 savagery (typical H2H setup)
RR and +3 H2H item => H2H50+9

Assumption:

Two Handed uses Drawout 100% of time
H2H uses Kelgor’s Fist 100% of time
H2H average swings per round (average of main and extra swings) = 1.63 (extensive testing by myself and others on this)
Both will have 240 quickness normally, in practice



Test Results:
‘1) Two Handed

Two Handed base, with Savagery Blows = 570
Two Handed Drawout, with Savagery Blows = 780 (style = 210, at this swing rate)
Two Handed effective swing rate = 5.6*(1-(85-60)/500) = 5.32

A) For new server (no TOA), Effective in-game swing rate = 5.6 * quickness haste * highest shout haste = 5.6*(1-(240-60)/500)*(1-.39) = 5.6*.64*.61 = 2.18

Cap DPS = base + style (adjusted for faster rate) / effective swing rate
= 570 + 210(2.18/5.32) / 2.18 = 656/2.18 = 301

B) Assume Augment Healer, with at least second highest celerity
Effective swing = 1.50
Cap DPS = 570 + 210(1.5/5.32) / 1.5 = 629/1.5 = 419

‘2) H2H

H2H base, with Bestial Blows = 272
H2H Kelgor’s Fist, with Bestual Blows = 619 (style = 347, at this swing rate)
H2H effective swing rate = 4.0*(1-(85-60)/500) = 3.8

‘A) Effective in-game swing rate = 4.0*quickness haste * second highest shout haste = 4.0*.64*.68 = 1.74

Cap DPS = base*1.63 + style (adjusted for faster rate) / effective swing rate
= 272*1.63 + 347 (1.74/3.8 ) / 1.74 = 602/1.74 = 345

‘B) Assume Augment Healer, with at least second highest celerity
Effective swing 1.50

Cap DPS = 272*1.63 + 347(1.5/3.8 ) = 580/1.5 = 386


Conclusion:

Without Augment Healer the H2H setup will out-damage the Two Handed setup by 1 – 345/301 = 14.6%

With Augment Healer the Two Handed Savage setup will out-damage the H2H setup by 1 – 419/386 = 8.5%

Consideration for Two Handed:

I will remain Two Handed and feel that in-game they produce more damage than H2H in most all situations (Augment Healer or not.) The above test did not factor many things that would make think that. Here are those reasons, in no particular order:

1) The above test was biased H2H by assuming a higher than normal style 100% of time.

Tests based on a very high growth rate style for H2H, 100% of the time. This will not be the case in-game. So the comparative (between set-ups) cap DPS of H2H will be lower than concluded in the comparison test above, since in-game the average growth rate of all styles used will be lower than Kelgor’s Fist’s growth rate

2) If you do not hit (miss) you are doing no damage and the H2H will miss more than the Two Handed setup.

The H2H will use Wild Call some, which will not only bring down the average growth rate, but has no to-hit bonus so it will miss much more than the high to-hit Drawout the two handed sword savage can use anytime. Therefore bring down damage over time, in comparison to the Two Handed Savage. Also, the positional style only has medium to-hit, which while not as bad as Wild Calls no to-hit bonus, will miss more than Drawout

3) Another if you do not hit (miss) you are doing no damage and the extra swings, of H2H miss much more than the 100% styled Two Handed swings

The average swings per round of 1.63 is a big advantage for H2H but those extra swings have no style so they do miss much more than the 100% styled high to-hit bonus swings of the Two Handed savages. So giving full credit of 1.63 materially overstates the comparative damage of the H2H setup, as far as damage over the time.

4) More weaponskill means less variance, and average damage closer to cap damage

A Troll Two Handed savage is going to have about 10%+ more weaponskill than any race H2H, so its average damage variance will be 10% higher to its damage cap than the H2H will be, so on average 10% more damage, which this cap DPS comparison does not capture.

Considerations for H2H:

‘1) Utility Stuns, slows and much utility.

If as my guess, since I can not isolate the variables in 1-4, as I can in the cap damage comparison, the two handed savages does 10% (average situations) to 20% (Augment Healer) more damage over time, is about 13% more damage (if my 4 factors above are correct) worth not having that utility? That depends on play style. I like the zen-approach of Two Handed – one style, pretty much all the time, allowing me to be zen-like and concentrate on players, situations etc. more. Many like the positional hits and thinking more about the actual attack.

‘2) Fun factor

Many enjoy all the positional hits, the big damage when you get a quad swing and all hit and do critical damage, etc. Most find it very fun and that is the reason to be playing one in the first place.